The previous ten is here.
Here's the previous 190.
200. Harmon Killebrew
199. Goose Goslin
198. Jimmy Collins
197. Jose Cruz
196. Bobby Bonds
195. Graig Nettles
194. Jack Clark
193. Ron Cey
192. Dazzy Vance
191. Jim Bunning
190. Bobby Doerr
189. Buddy Bell
188. Roy Halladay
187. Tony Mullane
186. Ducky Medwick
185. Clark Griffith
184. Carlos Beltran
183. Bret Saberhagen
182. Vladimir Guerrero
181. Enos Slaughter
180. Ken Boyer
179. Joe Gordon
178. Andre Dawson
177. King Kelly
176. Jimmy Wynn
175. Kenny Lofton
174. Joe Torre
173. John Olerud
172. Joe Jackson
171. Stan Hack
170. Bobby Abreu
169. Frank Tanana
168. Buck Ewing
167. Jim O'Rourke
166. Reggie Smith
165. Al Simmons
164. Richie Ashburn
163. Bob Caruthers
162. Billy Williams
161. Darrell Evans
160. Jake Beckley
159. Sammy Sosa
158. Duke Snider
157. Dwight Evans
156. Tommy John
155. Andruw Jones
154. Robin Ventura
153. Luis Tiant
152. Dave Winfield
151. Bob Feller
150. Jack Glasscock
149. Elmer Flick
148. Gabby Hartnett
147. Will Clark
146. Jim Palmer
145. Pud Galvin
144. Willie Stargell
143. Home Run Baker
142. Billy Herman
141. Hal Newhouser
140. Juan Marichal
139. Red Ruffing
138. Dick Allen
137. Bill Dickey
136. Amos Rusie
135. Pee Wee Reese
134. Keith Hernandez
133. Jackie Robinson
132. Monte Ward
131. Don Sutton
130. Willie Randolph
129. Jesse Burkett
128. Wee Willie Keeler
127. Bid McPhee
126. Mike Piazza
125. Harry Heilmann
124. Ted Lyons
123. Kevin Brown
122. Ed Walsh
121. Larry Walker
120. Brooks Robinson
119. Fred Clarke
118. Hoss Radbourn
117. Ryne Sandberg
116. Bobby Wallace
115. Lou Boudreau
114. Curt Schilling
113. Jeff Kent
112. Carlton Fisk
111. Rafael Palmeiro
110. Joe Cronin
109. Ernie Banks
108. Ron Santo
107. Derek Jeter
106. Carl Hubbell
105. Mark McGwire
104. Yogi Berra
103. Billy Hamilton
102. Tim Keefe
101. Edgar Martinez
100. Dennis Eckersley99. Willie McCovey
98. Rick Reuschel
97. Eddie Murray
96. John Smoltz
95. Craig Biggio
94. Mariano Rivera
93. Don Drysdale
92. Roberto Alomar
91. Gary Sheffield
90. Jim Edmonds
89. Jim Thome
88. Johnny Mize
87. Manny Ramirez
86. Pedro Martinez
85. Scott Rolen
84. Alan Trammell
83. John Clarkson
82. Robin Yount
81. Luke Appling
80. Lou Whitaker
79. Gary Carter
78. Bobby Grich
77. Tim Raines
76. Sam Crawford
75. Tony Gwynn
74. Paul Waner
73. Ed Delahanty
72. Mike Mussina
71. Reggie Jackson
70. Frankie Frisch
69. Rod Carew
68. Paul Molitor
67. Tom Glavine
66. Bill Dahlen
65. Ken Griffey
64. Nolan Ryan
63. Chipper Jones
62. Barry Larkin
61. Ozzie Smith
60. Johnny Bench
59. Charlie Gehringer
58. Carl Yastrzemski
57. Ivan Rodriguez
56. Al Kaline
55. Roberto Clemente
54. George Brett
53. Pete Rose
52. Dan Brouthers
51. Robin Roberts
50. Eddie Plank
49. Frank Thomas
48. Fergie Jenkins
47. Arky Vaughan
46. Joe DiMaggio
45. Jeff Bagwell
44. George Davis
43. Wade Boggs
42. Roger Connor
41. Albert Pujols
40. Jimmie Foxx
39. Lefty Grove
38. Bob Gibson
37. Steve Carlton
36. Kid Nichols
35. Randy Johnson
34. Bert Blyleven
33. Cap Anson
32. Gaylord Perry
31. Phil Niekro
30. Cal Ripken
29. Warren Spahn
28. Eddie Mathews
27. Christy Mathewson
26. Alex Rodriguez
25. Tom Seaver
24. Greg Maddux
23. Joe Morgan
22. Frank Robinson
21. Lou Gehrig
20. Nap Lajoie
19. Mike Schmidt
18. Grover Cleveland Alexander
17. Rickey Henderson
16. Mickey Mantle
15. Mel Ott
14. Ted Williams
13. Rogers Hornsby
12. Tris Speaker
11. Eddie Collins
Here are the two rosters
Career value:
C Rodriguez (Bench)
1B Gehrig (Anson)
2B Collins (Hornsby)
SS Rodriguez (Ripken)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Williams (Henderson)
CF Speaker (Mantle)
RF Ott (Robinson)
RHP Alexander (Maddux, Seaver, Mathewson, Niekro, Perry, Blyleven )
LHP Spahn (Johnson)
1B Gehrig (Anson)
2B Collins (Hornsby)
SS Rodriguez (Ripken)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Williams (Henderson)
CF Speaker (Mantle)
RF Ott (Robinson)
RHP Alexander (Maddux, Seaver, Mathewson, Niekro, Perry, Blyleven )
LHP Spahn (Johnson)
Subjective/Peak
C Bench (Berra)
1B Gehrig (Pujols)
2B Hornsby (Lajoie)
SS Rodriguez (Vaughan)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Williams (Jackson)
CF Mantle (Speaker)
RF Ott (Robinson)
RHP Mathewson (Rivera, Martinez, Walsh, Nichols, Alexander, Maddux )
LHP Grove (Johnson)
1B Gehrig (Pujols)
2B Hornsby (Lajoie)
SS Rodriguez (Vaughan)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Williams (Jackson)
CF Mantle (Speaker)
RF Ott (Robinson)
RHP Mathewson (Rivera, Martinez, Walsh, Nichols, Alexander, Maddux )
LHP Grove (Johnson)
10. Roger Clemens RHP WARP+WAR=263.9
1984-07
Red Sox
ERA+ 143
MVPQ 1987 (18.2), 1990 (18.2), 1997 (21.9, w/Toronto),
Mathewson's 6 MVPQ gives him the advantage for the peak roster for me - and now I'm going to reverse course and penalize Rivera's lack of innings and bump him. Making my RH pitching rotation:
1. Mathewson
2. Martinez
3. Clemens
4. Walsh
5. Rivera
6. Nichols
7. Alexander
8. Maddux
I bump Randy Johnson, keeping only the one lefty. There's still two pitchers left to come.
Red Sox
ERA+ 143
MVPQ 1987 (18.2), 1990 (18.2), 1997 (21.9, w/Toronto),
Mathewson's 6 MVPQ gives him the advantage for the peak roster for me - and now I'm going to reverse course and penalize Rivera's lack of innings and bump him. Making my RH pitching rotation:
1. Mathewson
2. Martinez
3. Clemens
4. Walsh
5. Rivera
6. Nichols
7. Alexander
8. Maddux
I bump Randy Johnson, keeping only the one lefty. There's still two pitchers left to come.
9. Stan Musial LF 264.8
1941-63
Cardinals
OPS+ 159
I can't do a better Musial v. Williams absent the pre-1950 season by season WARP totals, which currently are not available. Williams had a significantly better bat - that OPS+ is ridiculous. Musial's also below both Gehrig and Pujols in OPS+, and given their nearly double digit MVPQ seasons its unlikely he's getting past them there either.
Meaning what - meaning that Musial slides in now as the backup LF. Emphasis on now. And it could be Pujols, backing up at first base - who keeps Musial off the all time roster.
Cardinals
OPS+ 159
I can't do a better Musial v. Williams absent the pre-1950 season by season WARP totals, which currently are not available. Williams had a significantly better bat - that OPS+ is ridiculous. Musial's also below both Gehrig and Pujols in OPS+, and given their nearly double digit MVPQ seasons its unlikely he's getting past them there either.
Meaning what - meaning that Musial slides in now as the backup LF. Emphasis on now. And it could be Pujols, backing up at first base - who keeps Musial off the all time roster.
8. Honus Wagner SS 284.6
Pirates
1897-1917
Pirates
1897-1917
OPS+ 150
As with Williams/Musial, I'd like to see a yearly WARP breakdown of Wagner before comfortably slotting him above ARod - but provisionally, I'll stick with Wagner's slightly superior bat.
As with Williams/Musial, I'd like to see a yearly WARP breakdown of Wagner before comfortably slotting him above ARod - but provisionally, I'll stick with Wagner's slightly superior bat.
7. Cy Young RHP 285.8
1890-11
Indians/Red Sox
ERA+ 138
Young in after Clemens, who has a better adjusted ERA, and ahead of Walsh, as the weight of the value necessitates he falls there. Again, subject to revision.
Indians/Red Sox
ERA+ 138
Young in after Clemens, who has a better adjusted ERA, and ahead of Walsh, as the weight of the value necessitates he falls there. Again, subject to revision.
6. Hank Aaron RF 295.8
1954-76
Braves
OPS+ 155
MVPQ 1959 (17.6), 1960 (18.8), 1961 (17.6), 1962 (17.4), 1967 (18.1),
Aaron better, but not by magnitudes, than Ott/Robinson.
Braves
OPS+ 155
MVPQ 1959 (17.6), 1960 (18.8), 1961 (17.6), 1962 (17.4), 1967 (18.1),
Aaron better, but not by magnitudes, than Ott/Robinson.
5. Ty Cobb CF 298.6
1905-28
Tigers
OPS+ 168
Behind Mantle, ahead of Speaker.
Tigers
OPS+ 168
Behind Mantle, ahead of Speaker.
4. Walter Johnson RHP 301.3
1907-27
Senators
ERA+ 147
The Train's the best pitcher who ever lived.
Senators
ERA+ 147
The Train's the best pitcher who ever lived.
3. Willie Mays CF 316
1951-73
Giants
OPS+ 155
MVPQ 1954 (21.1), 1955 (17.6), 1957 (17), 1958 (20.8), 1960 (18.1), 1961 (17.3), 1962 (21.1), 1963 (19.5), 1964 (20.4), 1965 (21.9), 1966 (17.6),
11 MVPQ seasons for Mays.
Giants
OPS+ 155
MVPQ 1954 (21.1), 1955 (17.6), 1957 (17), 1958 (20.8), 1960 (18.1), 1961 (17.3), 1962 (21.1), 1963 (19.5), 1964 (20.4), 1965 (21.9), 1966 (17.6),
11 MVPQ seasons for Mays.
2. Barry Bonds LF 358
1986-07
Giants/Pirates
OPS+ 181
MVPQ 1990 (18.4), 1992 (19.2), 1993 (20.8), 1996 (19.4), 1997 (16.9), 1998 (18.8), 2000 (17), 2001 (24.6), 2002 (23.5), 2003 (19.9), 2004 (24.2),
11 MVPQ seasons for Bonds. Be useful to see how many Williams had. Bonds is the LF for now.
Giants/Pirates
OPS+ 181
MVPQ 1990 (18.4), 1992 (19.2), 1993 (20.8), 1996 (19.4), 1997 (16.9), 1998 (18.8), 2000 (17), 2001 (24.6), 2002 (23.5), 2003 (19.9), 2004 (24.2),
11 MVPQ seasons for Bonds. Be useful to see how many Williams had. Bonds is the LF for now.
1. Babe Ruth RF/LHP 375.1
1914-35
Yankees/Red Sox
OPS+ 206
ERA+ 122
And we have a winner.
Edit - it's the all star break in 2011; I'm revising - the two numbers I'm using are still WAR (Baseball-reference) and WARP3 (now using Clay Davenport's version). That means changes. I'll edit when time permits. Here is the new top ten.
1. 1Ruth 360
2. 2Bonds 345.2
3. 3Mays 299.9
4. 4Johnson 290.3
5. 5Cobb 282.7
6. 6Clemens 277.2
7. 7Aaron 271
8. 8Young 266
9. 9Wagner 262.1
10. 10.Musial 249.5
The two rosters.
Career value:
C Rodriguez (Bench)
1B Gehrig (Anson)
2B Collins (Hornsby)
SS Wagner (Rodriguez)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Bonds (Musial)
CF Mays (Cobb)
RF Ruth (Aaron)
RHP Johnson (Young, Clemens, Alexander, Maddux, Seaver, Mathewson,)
LHP Spahn (Johnson)
1B Gehrig (Anson)
2B Collins (Hornsby)
SS Wagner (Rodriguez)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Bonds (Musial)
CF Mays (Cobb)
RF Ruth (Aaron)
RHP Johnson (Young, Clemens, Alexander, Maddux, Seaver, Mathewson,)
LHP Spahn (Johnson)
Subjective/Peak
C Bench (Berra)
1B Gehrig (Pujols)
2B Hornsby (Lajoie)
SS Wagner (Rodriguez)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Bonds (Williams)
CF Mays (Mantle)
RF Ruth (Aaron)
RHP Johnson ( Mathewson, Clemens, Young, Martinez, Rivera, Walsh, Nichols,)
LHP Grove
1B Gehrig (Pujols)
2B Hornsby (Lajoie)
SS Wagner (Rodriguez)
3B Schmidt (Mathews)
LF Bonds (Williams)
CF Mays (Mantle)
RF Ruth (Aaron)
RHP Johnson ( Mathewson, Clemens, Young, Martinez, Rivera, Walsh, Nichols,)
LHP Grove
5 comments
Does Manny Ramirez get into the Hall in 2016? Does he deserve to?
1. Not any chance, no. Perhaps one day, but that day isn't close.
2. Yes, absolutely. We're completely fabricating any knowable percentage of performance attributable to PEDs, and that's assuming that its usage is distinct from cortisone injections or Lasik eye surgery, or in a context where current Hall of Famers didn't use PEDs or amphetamines, or cheat in non drug related ways, or benefit from structural differences in baseball like a racial barrier that skewed performance. When you evaluate Ramirez within the context of his era, he's a Hall of Famer.
http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rules-election/bbwaa
5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
You actually delete blog comments with content you find inconvenient? Color me disappointed.
Nope - you wound up in the spam filter.
On the merits, I wouldn't want to make the "Ty Cobb has greater moral character than Manny Ramirez" argument. There are Klansmen in the HOF. I'd assume were we to walk through the lives of every member of the HOF and attempt to seriously apply that portion of the bylaws, we'd empty that place out quick. To utilize it now, against just this specific group of players, is a curious moral line draw.
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